Message 22823 of 39188 in General Discussion

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> Take the following anyway you like...
> 
> I am wondering if certain bartender's claims to be creative are 
> really fair. There are a number of people who collect obscure or out 
> of print cocktail books then rip off the recipes, and then simply 
> twist the recipe around and try to pretend it came to them in a flash 
> of inspiration. Most of us will never notice because we don't have 
> access to the same literature as they do. 

 I take your point in one sense. I agree that if they're presenting twisted 
old recipes as inspired origional creations from their own genius it's no 
indication of any real creativity. However, I have to admit that I collect any 
bar books I can get my hands on (even the crappest little books) but am 
particularly fond of the old ones and I'm certainly guilty of playing around 
with old recipes and formulas to create differant drinks. When I do make 
drinks based around twisting old recipes I normally try to reference the 
origional in the name of the twist...

[robert] Re: whiskey???

...and (as Summieone will testify when I made him the drink) I allways try and 
work the origional drinks into the conversation when I'm making the twists.
 I was searching old posts when nothing new was comming up a while back and 
found this that suprised me when I read it.... 

I found a book t'other day from the 50's with a Canadian Blackberry Fix (2 
canadian, 1 lemon, .75 gomme built on crushed ice with blackberry brandy 
floated on the top and garnisheed with a blackberry and a lemon slice)... 
sounds like a bramble to me but 30 years before Dick 'invented it'.
[aw] Re: Books, Books, Books!!!

I wouldn't say that it was uncreative to twist this drink (if indeed it was 
twisted and not a coincidence) as the result is a very nice drink! I know you 
worked with Dick B, do you have any insider info on it?
>
 
> Are people really so into themselves that they can't just be honest 
> and say that a recipe they are touting as being unique is totally 
> influenced from one particular source. 
> 

If it is totally from one sauce and being touted as totally unique then fair 
enough but if they're influenced by more than one do they have to reference 
them all. I posted another twist the other day.....

[robert] Breakfast drink competition

 It was inspired by a mimosa royale (referenced in the title) and a drink by 
Salvatore Calebrese called a Pierce Brosnan (frozen vodka with a flaming 
absinthe coated sugar cube dropped in). It isn't that "origional" as it 
combines two elements of other drinks but it doesn't make it taste the same as 
those drinks and there's a certain level of creativity in combining differant 
elements to make something differant and (even if it's from old ideas) new.
 If you go back over time, the similarity between certain drinks suggests that 
this is no new phenominon yet the twists on twists live on. Take the Brandy 
crusta, to a sidecar, to a margarita, to a cosmopolitan to a metropolitan to a 
....... That formula of drink works well and any drinks with new ingrediants 
based on that formula aren't damned simply because they can apear uninspired!

> Not sure where I am going with that. But if people were a bit more 
> forthcoming with their sources then cocktails would not be so 
> esoteric to outsiders. 
> 
> I browse Cocktaildb.com quite alot, and that leads to a lot of 
> "inspiration".
> 
> However, one of the biggest problems with Cocktaildb.com is that to 
> begin with it was meant to be about only published recipes being 
> included, so as to avoid recipes which aren't really any good being 
> submitted. Yet if you look at most of the recipes listed, they don't 
> include any information as to where they came from. No year, no book, 
> no creator, nothing! 

I like that site and the lack of reference frustrates me too.

How do we know that this is all not just a ruse 
> to self-promote a tiny clique of people, just their ideas and just 
> their books?

Specific to cocktaildb, they don't promote the creators by listing them so I 
think it's unlikely there but in the wider world of bartending, maybe?
> 
> The great thing about the Webtender forums is that people speak their 
> minds freely, throw around ideas and recipes, without thinking they 
> are playing to an imaginary audience. More of a collection of 
> friends, rather then self-congratulating sycophants.
> 

I couldn't agree more and have been totally hooked as a result since I first 
stumbled on the site!

Rob


-- 
"Manners maketh the man, Bourbon, vermouth and bitters maketh the Manhattan"