Message 8473 of 22774 in Behind the Bar

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> 
> Oops.. I meant, Why do you think that a person that doesn't drink 
> CAN'T discuss cocktails/beer/wine with a guest or make suggestions or 
> recommendations.
> 
> I think that discussion and suggestion and recommendations are all 
> part of the bartender's world.

You're right, even without firsthand knowledge a bartender can participate in 
this discussion.  Even as a drinker I fall back into this position when 
discussing wines or scotchs that I haven't actually tasted.  I'm always 
pointed about the fact that my knowledge is based on secondhand information, 
but if it's a good source it may be better than my own.  


> 
> I used to go to a bar (as a patron, not a bartender or a drinker) and 
> people that see me later would SWEAR that they had seen me drinking. 
> Not me. "But you were the one that told me to try the Lynchburg 
> Lemonade!".. Yeppers. And I can also recommend other drinks.. or tell 
> when a person isn't a 'real' drinker, so they shouldn't be trying to 
> drink Hennessy neat to impress any one. I can also tell them that an 
> LIT doesn't tastes as boozy as, say, a Martini. Doesn't mean that I 
> have to drink any of it.  
> 
> I have never had a guest ask me 'how often do you drink this 
> yourself?'. I have had a few ask me what my favorite drink is, and I 
> tell them, honestly, 'Cubra Libre, but without the Rum'.

That's great.  I mean that, no sarcasm, I'm impressed that you care enough and 
have learned enough to read your customers and make suggestions without any 
firsthand knowledge of how these drinks taste.  Still, I'd say you've done a 
good job of compensating for something that would be a no-brainer for a person 
that had actually tasted these products and combinations.  In essence you're 
running uphill in a race that an experienced drinker would consider flat.  
Kudos to you for reaching the finish line, but you're doing so in spite of a 
handicap.  


> > done but I'd take the Pepsi Challenge against them any day of the 
> > week for making the best Margarita/Sidecar/Cosmopolitan, you name it. 
> > 
> 
> Hmm... sounds a bit arrogant to me. You assume that yours is 
> better, and this assumption is based SOLELY on the idea of a drinker, 
> vs a non drinker. And again, as I mentioned before, what YOU like may 
> not be what the guests likes. It happens EVERY DAY.

I'm not conceited, I'm convinced.  ;)

Yes, my assumption is that someone who knows what a drink is supposed to taste 
like, and with that knowledge works to balance and perfect a blend of flavors, 
is going to make a better drink than the one who can only follow a recipe and 
hope for the best.  Again, my cooking background is an influence here as I 
found that the best chefs (the ones who I learned the most from) were the ones 
that were tasting everything constantly.  Even something as pedestrian as 
mashed potatoes can be amazing when seasoned and mixed just so.  And even if 
you've made a dish a hundred times you can always taste it to make last minute 
adjustments to acidity, salt, creaminess, etc.  

I don't mean to insult the abilties of non-drinking bartenders, but it seems 
to me that all things being equal the drinker is going to have more insight 
into making a drink than the non-drinker.  The non-drinker may come up with 
lots of roundabout ways to make up for their lack of firsthand experience (as 
I discussed above), but that's ultimately just a way to gain through other 
sources what they can't acquire directly.  I admit to needing those other 
sources for the many things I haven't tasted myself but that comes into play 
on more obscure products (rarely sold cognacs, high end single malts), not the 
basics.  
 
> 
> >  I don't see how book knowledge can compete with first hand 
> > experience matched with a good palate.  Again, I'm biased because I 
> > 
> > worked as a chef for years before getting behind the bar and I 
> > approach cocktails the same way I do cuisine: using premium 
> > ingredients to attain balanced but distinct flavors.  
> 
> Ok. And I don't think that just reading about something will cut it, 
> either. But, I can smell..... I can ask other guests 'how does Brand 
> A compare to Brand B, in your opinion?'........  And I ask about 
> flavorings and nuances of liquors. I also READ up on them (go to 
> their website.. what is that hinted flavor that no one else can 
> identify?)

I do the same things to fill in the gaps of what I haven't tasted or would 
like to know more about.  Those are all good things that you're doing but it 
still feels like you're pouring with one hand (tongue?) tied behind your back. 
 Still, it sounds like you're dedicated and have found effective ways to talk 
shop with customers and pour a good drink.  I'm not inditing your abilities, 
just exploring the question of what firsthand knowledge does for a bartender.  
I'd also like to reiterate the point that this discussion focuses on only one 
of many characterstics that a barteder is rated by.  

> 

> Yes. I know. But you are still assuming that guests have matching 
> palates to yours. This may work MOST of the time, but supposing you 
> get some one that is the type to say 'I would like a White Zinfadel, 
> NO ICE!', and they really have a palate that would make them 
> appreciate a glass of Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer, you may pour up what 
> YOU'D like. My point is: you aren't a mind reader! You can't know how 
> every one would like it. 

Of course, I'm not assuming that every customer matches my tastes.  I wrote 
previously that there is always some subjectivity involved, some discretion on 
the part of the bartender - but *that's what makes a good bartender*.  If 
cocktails were merely following exact recipes all day than I could be replaced 
by a monkey or a machine.  What I bring to the table with regards to mixology 
is a broad knowledge of cocktails and liquor and a culinary approach to making 
the best drink possible.  Yes, I am following my own tastes and I take the 
risk that I'll encounter someone that prefers a sweeter margarita.  But even 
if you follow a bar book precisely you'll encounter a customer who has a 
different taste.  I would rather trust my own judgement and make the call, see 
what happens.  

I don't want you to get the impression that I'm a Bar Nazi that imposes my 
vision of perfection upon my patrons.  Far from it, I use my knowledge and 
firsthand experience with spirits to make the drink that I think they will 
enjoy the most.  Every once in a while I'll miss the mark but in many more 
instances people tell me they've had the "best BLANK ever."

Besides, we're just talking about how first and secondhand knowledge help you 
make a good drink.  I'm not talking about reading customers, that's another 
skill entirely.  By talking to customers I do get a read on their tastes and 
factor that in when I make suggestions.  It's not just a question of "What 
would Natrone drink?" because a lot of the drinks I make aren't things that I 
would ever order.  Even if I don't favor that drink personally it still helps 
me to know what it tastes like to be able to please the customer.  

Likewise, I may adjust a recipe because of what I think their preference will 
be.  Seems like I do this a lot with Cosmos, some people want them very strong 
with only a hint of sweetness, some people expect them to be candy.  If 
anything you're making my arguement for me since knowing what drinks tastes 
like better enables me to understand what the customer is talking about, what 
they're looking for.  


> 
> I would agree: keep making them the way you've been making them, esp 
> if it works. But it's not fair to say that YOUR way is better than 
> any one that's not drinking's way.... solely because you are a 
> drinker. 

Actually it isn't solely because I'm a drinker, but I can't conceive of being 
able to make the drinks that I do without that experience to pull upon.  I'm 
not saying that a drinking bartender is always better than a non-drinking one, 
I'm sure that there are drinking bartenders who can't even make a decent 
Kamikaze.  The recurring theme here is that it's a handicap - one that you may 
overcome and be a great bartender in spite of, but it's still something that 
you have to be able to do in spite of.  

> 
> > A bartender could be taught to make an 
> > excellent Mahattan by rote, but I think there's something special 
> > about the person having a first hand understanding of the flavors 
> > involved when mixing whiskey, sweet vermouth and Angostura bitters 
> > 
> > (Mixmaster I'm looking at you).  Not to mention the flexibility I 
> > mentioned above, being able to tailor the drink based upon the base 
> > 
> > spirit.  
> 
> But.. if you make the drink the same way every time you make that 
> drink.... I guess I'm missing your point. Or am I?
> 
You're right, this stuff can be learned by rote but you'd have to find a 
mixologist that you trusted to perfect all of the recipes in the first place.  
In the case of my Maker's Mark Manhanttan it would be very easy to duplicate 
without bothering to know what bourbon tastes like.  


> > Yet I've been cooking and mixing for 
> > enough years to learn to trust my palate, to learn how to balance and 
> > 
> > optimize almost any drink.  
> 
> That's wonderful. And I think that a non-drinker can do the same. 
> Trust YOUR palate, or their other guests' palate. 

That can work, you have convinced me.